MagicMum.com

ainm2 if you are referring to catholicism as "any old nonsense" then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that one.

There is a problem with the curriculum - imo all religions should be there as cultural education, with no emphasis put on any religion. And yes, the teacher must teach exactly the curriculum, sea monsters and all.

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Ribbit

But Ribbit, that is exactly my point. I might consider Catholicism to be a load of nonsense, while you do not. We have different beliefs. I respect yours and you respect mine. Great.

And I agree entirely that all religions should be included on the curriculum. The FACTUAL information about those religions, that is.
There is a big difference between the teacher saying
- "People who are Catholic believe that the bread and wine is turned into the body and blood of Jesus Christ during mass" (no problem with this)
and the teacher saying
- "The bread and wine is turned into the body and blood of Jesus Christ during mass. Fact" (big problem with this!)

THAT is the difference between teaching a child ABOUT a religion and preparing a child to take a sacrament in that religion.

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No-one can possibly disagree with this point. And that's why in our house most of the kids questions about religious issues start with the answer of "Some people believe..."
In Catholic schools, children are taught WHAT to believe according to the Catholic church. They're not taught ABOUT religion on any objective level and my kids don't partake in religious instruction for this very reason.

ainm you've explained that well. The problem lies in the curriculum, and unfortunately won't be fixed till the curriculum is changed.

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Ribbit

And the curriculum will not be changed while there is a perceived 'demand' for FHC /confirmation to be taught in schools.

That 'perceived' demand is due to so many non-believing parents sending their children for FHC/confirmation for IMO bogus reasons:

* so they 'won't be left out' (of something they don't believe in anyway!) That is is just daft.

* So they will feel part of 'the community' - There are lots of communities you can be part of: GAA/sports, local drama society etc. A religious community (of a religion you don't really believe in or practice) isn't the only community out there.

*So they can know and learn about catholic traditions (You can read and learn about these things. I learned a lot about Judaism without actually having to have a Bar Mitzvah! )

I'm with ainm2 on this...


I just wish people would 'grow a pair' and go to mass/make FHC etc if they believe in it, and don't if they don't. And learn and practice their religion in their own churches, and stop using the public school system to indoctrinate their own children and others into a particular belief system.

that's all

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May the force...Live long and prosper!

Well said Torbeck, exactly how I feel.

Aimn2, am going to bring it up with the school at the end of the year about ds1 being facilitated during FHC year. He is in 1st class. Want to talk to some of the other non catholic parents and see what they think.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

Fully agree with this. It's a bit like saying that a teacher has to indoctrinate kids to believe in Fine Gael - can you imagine the uproar??!! On the other hand, I don't imagine anyone would have a problem with a teacher teaching kids about politics in general and giving them an overview of all the political parties.

I was raised RC, completely lapsed now - more agnostic than anything else I suppose - and DH and kids are (supposedly) C of I but they're not at all active in it either. DS1 has thought it all through and is very verbal about his non-beliefs, and neither DS1 or DS2 were in the slightest bit phased about not making their FHC - they didn't feel excluded in any way.

If it's acceptable for non-RC kids to sit it out, what's the big deal about non-believers sitting it out???

Here here!!

interesting piece on RTE website today

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0118/school.html
It finds that in general nine-year-olds spend most time at school learning English, Maths and Irish. After that Religion is the next subject that takes up most time.

Religion - after the 3R's - not history or geography or civics or health or PE, .......religion ........

I am very happy for my children to have religious education - love them getting to explore what different faiths believe, but it seems pure crazy to me that we allow religion (particularly teaching one particular one as FACT) dominates so much of our children's time in school

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family

Think that's CofI isn't it?

Agree with all the rest of your points on this thread. DD will be opted out of religious instruction and sacraments if she goes to the local school. Can someone clarify - does a school have to make provision for children who are not partaking in religious instruction to be supervised? I thought they did, but Clauds' experience is making me wonder.

As far as I know any new schools and extensions approved by dept of Ed are funded by them and not by local area also pretty sure most schools don't receive significant funding from parishes

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family

I agree with this 100%.

lucky you! - I don't think you are typical, can I be nosy and ask what sort of percentage of running costs are funded from parish - or is funding for particular items/needs.

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family

Engol, do you really think that inclusiveness in the community is a very good reason to make your first holy communion. I just can't agree with that at all.

I agree. As long as people do this for FHC, then catholicism will define the community.

nice - lucky bom, so no fundraising necessary from parents?

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family

I would happily pay a contribution if the patronage of our school changed from RC to a non-denominational school.

AFAIK our school is not funded in any way by the parish. The school relies on fundraising for most things.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

Money is coming from the same source anyway, it would just mean the school collecting it directly rather than going through the church.

I wish I had more time to spend reading and making a decent contribution.

Saying that inclusiveness in the commuinity is a good reason to make fhc is not the same as saying if you don't make your fhc you wont be included in the commuinity. My brain is fuddled after night duty and I wont make a good argument here. But it's logic, you know? All humans are mortal. Socrates is human. So Socrates is mortal. But the reverse is not necessarily true. Socrates is mortal. Socrates is human. All mortals are human (don't know if that's a good one!) Anyway. What I'm trying to say is it's one way logic. Oh and edit to add, I wanted to make an analogy to joining the GAA with little or no interest in someday getting to Croke Park. In just wanting to get some exercise and kick a ball around with your mates.

The other thing that I just wanted to say is from ages ago too,



Well, I disagree absolutely School is for a HELL of a lot more than learning about facts. Actually, facts is probably a minority aspect of it. But again, I'm afraid I really don't have time to make a concrete argument That is not to say it should be about religion! I don't think that at all and would definitely like a world where religion and education are seperate but for now they're not.

I also agree with Riam. For now I'm still quite a bit Christian. Not necessarily all the Magic and Miracles but certainly the "love one another as you love yourself" bit. That works and I'll go along with that.

Isn't society in general happy with religion than without? There might be stats and links there somewhere for that. I'm not talking about the individual now, so don't come on saying "I'm very happy and I'm not religious" but society as a whole.

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Infertility is not a choice but treatment should be

yes, in general, belonging does seem to confer a better sense of well being - not sure though if it's that actual belief bit of religion that makes people happy though (some of the most religious countries would not be ones I associate with a chuckle fest - Saudi Arabia anyone?

here is a good article

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the- ... -believers

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family

Researchers say that in societies of scarcity and poverty, religious people are happier than non religious people, but that in societies where everyone's needs are met, religious and non religious people are about equally happy.

It's also linked to the fact that during good times, church attendance is way down and then rises during bad times.

All that says to me really is that when people have little else in their life, religion makes them happier.

I wouldn't say society is happier as a whole.

Engol, I didn't think anim2 meant school is only about learning facts and nothing else as in no socialization, learning about getting along with people. I think she meant that school should be learning about things that are true and not just beliefs of come - as in learning about the fact that the reformation happened as opposed to the "fact" that transubstantiation happens.

I suspect most of the people in my local catholic church have their children make fhc because it is a rite of passage, part of their culture (mostly irish or italian-american) and makes them part of the community. not a problem. they want to be part of the church community for whatever reason so they send their children along to the classes/pay the fee/do what is required. Later they make choices not to (the difference in numbers between FHC classes and confirmation classes in our church is startling)

The problem in Ireland is if you make fhc because you want to be part of the community, generally speaking you are supporting the system by which the catholic church has the single biggest influence in primary education and will continue to do so. Fine if someone does that but then she is encouraging a system whereby the next generation of children will still be going to catholic schools because there isn't a choice. And as long as the church runs the schools, then they are a political force in the country.

I agree with all of the above except the using the catholic schools to indoctrinate their children into a particular belief system. I think even if there was a non denom school in my village I would still send my children to the Catholic school. The reason for this is that for as far back as I know my family has been Catholic, then I come along and decide I don't believe in it all, that is because I had the benefit of knowledge to base my decision to not believe on. If I don't allow them to be educated in the traditional religion of my family then I am denying them the right to decide for themselves and am making the decision for them. Without the knowledge of that religion they cannot make an informed decision as to whether they want to make FHC etc as adults. In an ideal world all the schools would be non-denom and I could send my children to a Sunday school or whatever to learn about religion and then they could use that education to decide if they believe when they are adults, but unfortunately that is no available in this country. I will not force my beliefs or lack thereof on my children but I will allow them to gain the knowledge they require to make an informed decision in later life. Non of my children with my FHC etc.

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(Formerly Aromamum)

sorry this makes absolutely no sense - you need to have your children taught as fact the beliefs of a particular religion so that they can make an informed decision? Really - did you feel the need to immerse yourself in any other faith so that you could make an informed decision about that religion too? Sorry for being flippant but you make no sense - you don't believe but want your children to be told things as TRUTH that you don't believe in.....I plain don't get this.

Also you say you'd be happy for your child to go to a non -denom school (there are none of these here only multi -d) and then get Religious instruction in sunday school , but this system doesn't exist - of course it does - except it's called Mass! (if you are a catholic) and in any parish you can ask the pp for help with religious instruction of your child. Any catholic parents in ET schools do just this - set up denominational instruction classes and get involved themselves in actively passing on their faith.

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"I guess that's just the circle of life: our parents faked their way through it,you fake your way through it and hopefully you don't raise a serial killer" Phil Dunphy - Modern Family