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Yep Clauds I know, the vast majority of schools are catholic. As a practicing catholic myself, I would actually like to see religion taken out of the schools. I had said in an earlier post that I think any family attending a catholic school who don't receive sacraments are brave, and that I commend them for that. FHC just so a child won't be left out is no reason to make FHC.

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Ribbit

Actually, Ribbit, inclusiveness in the community is a very good reason to make your first holy communion and, I think, a better reason than some that are suggested by the church.

My daughter is currently in her communion year. I'm trying my hardest to support her and stay on board with the cirriculum of the event but I find I am having to tell her "no, I'm sorry, you can make your own mind up but I disagree with that" more and more. For example "through my own faulth through my own fault through my own greivious fault" is the wording in the confessional prayer they are learning by rote at the moment. I find it nonsense and next to impossible to support it. She is quite confused at times by the conflict but she can work it out as she goes.

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I can't say I agree Engol. There are other ways to be involved in your community that don't involve taking the sacraments. Are you saying that children who don't make their FHC are excluded from the community? I think if that's peoples main or only reason for their child making their FHC, then it makes the whole thing a bit of a sham.

I knew that that would be taken up that way. And no of course not. I'm not insane. But it is a reason to make your fhc. It's not the best or the worst reason to make fhc. It's a reason and as far as I can see it it's not a bad one. Dd goes to the masses on Sunday mornings, meets up with her friends, enjoys herself. Not a bad reason at all.

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Sorry for taking you up wrong I suppose I can't deny it's a reason! It wouldn't be a good enough one for me though.

I just feel that if you are signing your child up for life to a church (and it is for life, since the change to canon law), then it should be because you have a strong belief and faith in that religion, and not so they don't feel left out.

I used to go to mass, meet up with friends, hang round outside the church and have a great time. But there was no religious aspect - we never listened to the mass, ran out of the church at the very first opportunity!! And as we got older we never actually went into the church. Just hung round to see who was saying mass and then went to the local chipper

But if your DD enjoys mass that's the main thing. At least you are bringing your child to mass every Sunday. So many people doing FHC don't set foot inside a church from the christening to FHC then til confirmation.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

Community does not equal church and church does not equal community. I am very up for my daughter being involved in her community, but I don't see why I have to tell her that she can't be unless she claims to believe in God and in the Catholic church.

I think a lot of this comes down to whether you think it's okay to belong to the Catholic church but despise half of its teachings. Personally I don't. Even if I believed half of what the Vatican spouts (which I don't), I don't think it's okay to belong to the church, but still condone sex before marriage, contraception, IVF etc. etc. while the church has denounced all of these as sinful behaviours.
If your beliefs are THAT diverse, then you should belong to a different religion... (probably one that you need to set up yourself!)... where God is good (and mysterious), there is life after death, you should be kind to others, BUT contraception and all of that is fine!

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Ainm2 - as devout a catholic as my mother is she totally disagrees with ivf ruling from the church. I suppose it's because both myself and my sister have been down that route and without IVF she wouldn't be a grandmother!

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

the way I reconcile that to myself, ainm, is I see myself as a Christian first and a Catholic second. the Christianity is important to me, the Catholicism isn't that important. I also feel that the church's teachings are wrong as you described, but the church has historically been wrong a lot and has come round. I feel I'm (and other Catholics who believe the same, which let's face it, must be more than 90% of them in western countries) are enlightened and we're just waiting for the church to catch up

it might be more honest of me to change to CoI but I like the church (people, not hierarchy) of my childhood, I like the familiarity, and I don't have a problem myself with going to Mass, believing in it but rejecting some of the church's other teachings.

St Paul said people have to come to God alone, without any mediator (i.e. Priest) so I see my relationship with God as between me and God, and the Catholic church is where I happen to go, but they're not the boss of me

(And I'm not a Holy Joe, normally my religion is kept to myself, but I wanted to explain some people's thinking and hope I'm not tagged with the MM Religious Nut label from now on!)

I'd say a large proportion of devout Catholics feel the same - probably a majority in fact. I could let it go if it was the ONLY rule of the church that I didn't agree with, and still call myself a Catholic. But it's just all the people who never go to mass, break all the rules, do exactly as they please to have the life that they want, but then claim that they are good Catholics and have a big white wedding and put their kids through all the sacraments.... that's the bit I don't get!
They are good people I'm sure, good Christians possibly, but NOT good Catholics.

Riam just seeing your post now. I get what you are saying. I just couldn't support, or be part of a church that I disagree so much with. And I don't think the church is going to change unless the people request it. Nobody is actually asking the church to change at the moment, they are just ignoring the bits that they don't like!

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I can't understand why more people don't have the courage of their convictions like you. Schools don't force parents or make them do anything. There may be pressure from family for some people but don't blame the school for that. Stand up for what you believe in , like Aruba. The "ah, he will feel so left out" or "I don't want her to be the only one.." "She's in the choir and getting dressed up even though she's not getting her communion" I don't understand this at all....

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Proud mum of 3. DD1 Skinny Minny 10! DD2 My Sensitive Soul 8! DS The Bulldozer A big 6!!!!!!!!!

Surely the obvious solution though is not to have doctrine and FHC prep taught during school time? It's all very well suggesting non practicing families let their children opt out but those children are missing out on part and often a considerable part of the school day and curriculum. What happens if andost likely when more and more kids in RC schools are not doing religion- who will supervise or teach them?

We don't do FHC but years ago I spoke to our local RC school about what the kids who are not RC do during religious instruction and was met with a blank face, they had no idea as it hadn't happened yet. Now it's a brave parent who will let their child attend a school that doesn't know what to do with non RC kids for a core part of the curriculum.


I agree with engol that inclusiveness is a valid reason for a child to partake on FHC. At least until they remove it from the curriculum of (effectively) state schools. After all it's not as if the other children from practicing families really understand what the event is all about anyway.
Hands up whose 7/8 year old genuinely understands transsubstiantion?

I agree with most of this but don't see the problem with the being in the choir bit. If I get my way that is exactly what DS will be doing next year. We are Christian and believe in God so I would have no problem with him going to the Mass and singing. I just don't think he needs to make his FHC which is something we don't believe in. I do think it would be nice for him to be there for his friends who do believe in it on the day though.

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Totally agree.

When I asked the principal about what happens to kids who aren't catholic and won't be doing FHC I was told there was no provision for non catholic children and if I wanted to remove them from class I would have to take them out of class and I would have to provide care/work for them. School will not facilitate it.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

Meant to add that I know lots of catholic families in ET or CoI schools who really like the way Catholic instruction and FHC prep is done, that is outside school time and by people trained in this area (priests, religion teachers...). It takes so much of the hype away as kids aren't discussing dresses and stuff in class, no child is left out and the teaching is done by practicing and 'professional' Catholics. After all the national school teacher could be a closet atheist

Surely this is the solution rather than separating children during the school day?

Why would they ever feel pressure to remove it from the curriculum if 100% of children attending the school are baptised Catholics who will receive FHC? The only way they will realise it is no longer a relevant part of the curriculum is when half the class is elsewhere during religion class because they are not receiving sacraments.

Clauds, I would take that up with the board of management. If the school accepts children of other doctrines then it should facilitate their religious beliefs.

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Oh and lollipop, I know several primary school teachers who ARE closet atheists. It is an insult to them and to our system of education and to the Church that they are obliged to prepare children for the sacraments. You will not get a job if you don't agree to do this.
There are so many things wrong with this whole system - I really believe the only way to change it is from the inside - to demonstrate to those who run it that a large portion of the population does not WANT this stuff taught in their schools.

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Is it really an insult to ask a teacher to teach something they don't believe in? I don't think so. It's in their job description so they should teach it, and if that means preparing for a sacrament then they should do that. They should respect other people's beliefs.

Personally I think FHC should be toned down a lot, a simple celebration with "Sunday School" type preparation would be better than preparation via the schools. I think schools should teach about all faiths equally, and spend much less time on religion generally.

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Ribbit

Ribbit, how about respecting the teacher's beliefs? Or is that not important?

If you were asked to teach children that the world was going to end in 2020 and that there is no such thing as God, just a big monster living under the sea who controls the tides.... would you mind? Would you feel that you should teach it to them just because lots of other people believed it?

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ainm2 - the teacher should teach what's on the curriculum, whether she believes it or not. Of course I respect the teacher's beliefs but what she teaches according to the curriculum and what she believes are 2 different things.

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Ribbit

Hi
I haven't read all the other replies, but I am in a similar situation to you, moved from Dublin to small rural community, 1 school, priest involved in school etc. However, I feel similar to you in that I don't feel I can just go along with it as I feel more stongly about it than that. However, I dont want DD to be left out. So I had a lovely chat to her teacher and told her that DH and I had decided that DD wouldn't make her communion but we still want her to be educated in Catholicism so that she can decide to make communion etc when she is an adult if she wishes. (DD is christened, DS1 is also but DS to isn't and won't be)

DD won't be removed from religion class as I want her to learn about the traditional religion of the family historically so that she can make an informed decision in later life. I also wouldn't expect the school to have to organise for her to be supervised elsewhere as they don't need that hassle due to our choice. DD will accompany her class to the church in all of the communion preparations etc. But over the weekend of the communion we will be on our hols so she won't feel like she is mission out.

DH and I have had a good few chats with DD about all of this and she has taken it surprisingly well and is really fine about it all.


Hope this helps

I would just say that you and your OH should probably make a decision soon so that you can talk to your child about the decision you make and give your child time to get used to the idea that he/she may be doing something different to the other kids and may indeed be the only one in the class not making communion (as my DD is).

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(Formerly Aromamum)

Well I disagree absolutely. School is for learning about facts. Religion is based on beliefs, not facts. It simply shouldn't BE on the curriculum, and then we wouldn't have to discuss whether or not teachers should have to teach it!

And I assume then that your answer to the sea monster question was yes, that you would teach that to children if you were told to.....

Frankly, I think encouraging our teachers to have unquestioning minds and just teach any old nonsense, as long as it is on the curriculum, is a bit self defeating.

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I agree with you but unfortunately while it is on the curriculum the teachers will have to teach it if they want a job....

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(Formerly Aromamum)

Just wanted to add for the benefit of the OP, some posters were raising the issue of involvement in the community, just to let you know that I and my family are hugely involved in the community while not being involved in the church at all. I have been on the Parents Assoc at school and local creche for the last 7 years, I am a founding member of the local mother and toddler group amongst other things.....DD is also involved in different things. So I wouldn't worry about that aspect of things...there are plenty of opportunities to be involved in a community.

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(Formerly Aromamum)